To CVP 509 owners

[ericho]

Laptops are cheap, many of us replace them every year or two anyway and Moore's Law continues unabated.
I am still running modular instruments and right now taking a very hard look at Pianoteq 3 pro (under $500).

Cheap hé ????
New laptop every 2 years + new software every 4 years + new audio / midi interfaces every 4 years

Never experienced trouble with drivers for your hardware ???

Most of our member just want to switch it on and play, have top quality that lasts at least 20 years.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Originally Posted by RBmusic

Wow, Big Fat List of features.
Feature encrusted ?
or Feature Encumbered ? (-:

Nope, there's several things I'm missing from the list (like true 16 channel recording, special voices like the Yamaha Mega or Articulation). But then there are things it has I'm missing from the Yamaha (like WiFi, and the moving keys is cool). The rest is much the same. Both are missing loads of functionalities I would like to see (you can read about most of them in the Wishlist forum)

Originally Posted by RBmusic

I have been watching and hoping for a (relatively) high quality and bug free CVP x09 since about the 200 series.
Every new generation disappoints me in some way, the bugs reported HERE and in usenet groups have been major purchase stoppers for me.

Then you'll be waiting for ever. As a programmer I can promise you bugs never go away. I consider the 309 to be relatively high quality, in spite of some random problems. And you're forgetting that people only write when they have problems; never when everything is fine. Someone will always have a problem. Show me a PC running softwares where not a single person has posted some form of problem on the net.

Originally Posted by RBmusic

I don't think the CVP 609 will be any more bug free than the 309 was and by the time the 709 comes out (IF it ever does) virtual soft instruments will dominate the home market AS WELL AS the semi-pro and studio markets.

It is clear you are barking up the wrong tree. Apparently you feel drawn to a keyboard, and you're searching for an excuse to have one. But what you really want, and need, is to work on the PC. That is fine; there are different ways to work with music, some find some ways preferable, others prefer others. I have done both, and prefer to have an actual standalone instrument - which includes both the furniture aspect, and the "standalone, all-in-one, virus-free, minimum-upgrade" aspect. I do use the PC for heavy scoring though, such as major composing. But sitting at a piano and working really with my own hands, is what makes me happy. Standalone instruments will not go away. Just like bicycles didn't go away when cars arrived on the scene. It's two different experiences.

Brgds

Danny

[RBmusic]

Originally Posted by ericho

Cheap hé ????
New laptop every 2 years + new software every 4 years + new audio / midi interfaces every 4 years

Never experienced trouble with drivers for your hardware ???

Most of our member just want to switch it on and play, have top quality that lasts at least 20 years.

New laptops every couple or three years - Yes.
Yes anyway, regardless of my music pastime.
New office and other utility software - Yes, but Office 2010 for example is still beta and "free". Again, this is independent of any music use.
New audio interface - after about 20 years - Yes, FINALLY going to a USB combination MIDI and analogue out to my keyboard amp, for about $165.
Primarily because laptops don't have the old type serial bus any longer.

Drivers aren't THAT much of a problem, a setting here, a question on a usenet group there, maybe a question back to the manufacturer.
Not the sort of problems I see HERE with folk trying to get support from the single source Y-word company.

The "Top quality that lasts for 20 years" is in fact barely current by the time you buy it. It remains where it was for 20 years, still just as good as the day you bought it, but improvements DO pass you by.
Did I miss something ?
Are there FREE upgrade/update software patches to bring 309s and 409s up to 509 ? (or 509.2.1.3 ?).
Do they send you ram expansion kits ?
Did you get one to expand from 4 Meg to 4 Gig ?
Sample space MATTERS !

I'm trying to remember what the state of the art was 20 years ago...
DX7s were popular "synths", the 16 MHz Intel 386 with Windoze 3.1 might have been current with 512M disk and 4Meg of memory.
Whatever Yamaha would have been putting in digital pianos at that time wouldn't have been AHEAD of the then current PCs.
I think I wouldn't want to still be stuck with that JUST BECAUSE of the cabinet, though it would be hard to let go of at 5, 7 or 10 years.

I'm still using my KX88 from those days, some things aren't DATED by their date of manufacture. My Amiga is "retired".
(-:

My upgrades & updates (specifically for the music interest) have been minimal.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Originally Posted by RBmusic

The "Top quality that lasts for 20 years" is in fact barely current by the time you buy it. It remains where it was for 20 years, still just as good as the day you bought it, but improvements DO pass you by.

That is exactly the point. Some people don't want all the bells and whistles, or are interested in learning new things/instruments. They simply want to play. Then a 20 year old keyboard is good enough, or even a 150 year old piano. It's a balance between what you need, and how much time, energy, and money you want to spend on having the latest and newest. It is clear that you fall into the latter category, but that does not invalidate the former. And again, playing using the PC is a different experience than playing on a standalone keyboard. Contrary to you, I'm not saying that one is better, just that they are different, and both are valid. Many use both. Most professional musicians use both. For instance composing on the PC but improvising and/or relaxing on the keyboard without using the PC.

Originally Posted by RBmusic

Did I miss something ?
Are there FREE upgrade/update software patches to bring 309s and 409s up to 509 ? (or 509.2.1.3 ?).
Do they send you ram expansion kits ?
Did you get one to expand from 4 Meg to 4 Gig ?

No of course not, although it would be wonderful if they could do that. (I've long thought myself, that if I started manufacturing keyboards, I would first of all make them modular. So you can select what capabilities you want and gradually upgrade by switching expansion cards yourself, just like with a PC). But your point is non-sequitur, null and void, basically silly. Because you don't get FREE upgrades from 32 bit PC technology to 64 bit either (or upgrades from 286 to 386 to 486 to pentium to itanium etc). Neither Microsoft or Intel send me RAM cards regularly for free (please give me the name of the person who apparently sends you RAM). As to OS, upgrading from 3.1 to XP to Vista to W7 etc is not FREE either (unless you do it illegally) - however; the OS upgrade of the CVP is in fact FREE, downloadable from the net. Your supposed point is utterly ridiculous.

Originally Posted by RBmusic

I think I wouldn't want to still be stuck with that JUST BECAUSE of the cabinet, though it would be hard to let go of at 5, 7 or 10 years.

As I said, it isn't just the furniture aspect; there is much else that plays into it. You obviously prefer a PC, and that is fine. I have no problem with that. But that does not make a keyboard "wrong" and "unnecessary", anymore than the bike became "wrong" when the car came (as I've already pointed out). I am a very tolerant man, but your constant bashing of the keyboard is starting to annoy me. Can you really not accept "different strokes for different folks?"

One day you too will reach the point where you have the "perfect" configuration for YOUR needs, and then you will stop upgrading as well. If this wasn't the case, we would all be running Cray supercomputers in our homes.

Meanwhile, it is clear that you do not want a keyboard. Fine. Let it go - we don't need to hear anymore of it. I don't want a car, but I don't post endlessly on a car afficionado site about why. You're getting close to trolling.

Brgds

Danny

[RBmusic]

Originally Posted by dbjorck

Hi!


That is exactly the point. Some people don't want all the bells and whistles, or are interested in learning new things/instruments. They simply want to play. Then a 20 year old keyboard is good enough, or even a 150 year old piano. It's a balance between what you need, and how much time, energy, and money you want to spend on having the latest and newest. It is clear that you fall into the latter category, but that does not invalidate the former. And again, playing using the PC is a different experience than playing on a standalone keyboard. Contrary to you, I'm not saying that one is better, just that they are different, and both are valid. Many use both. Most professional musicians use both. For instance composing on the PC but improvising and/or relaxing on the keyboard without using the PC.


No of course not, although it would be wonderful if they could do that. (I've long thought myself, that if I started manufacturing keyboards, I would first of all make them modular. So you can select what capabilities you want and gradually upgrade by switching expansion cards yourself, just like with a PC). But your point is non-sequitur, null and void, basically silly. Because you don't get FREE upgrades from 32 bit PC technology to 64 bit either (or upgrades from 286 to 386 to 486 to pentium to itanium etc). Neither Microsoft or Intel send me RAM cards regularly for free (please give me the name of the person who apparently sends you RAM). As to OS, upgrading from 3.1 to XP to Vista to W7 etc is not FREE either (unless you do it illegally) - however; the OS upgrade of the CVP is in fact FREE, downloadable from the net. Your supposed point is utterly ridiculous.


As I said, it isn't just the furniture aspect; there is much else that plays into it. You obviously prefer a PC, and that is fine. I have no problem with that. But that does not make a keyboard "wrong" and "unnecessary", anymore than the bike became "wrong" when the car came (as I've already pointed out). I am a very tolerant man, but your constant bashing of the keyboard is starting to annoy me. Can you really not accept "different strokes for different folks?"

One day you too will reach the point where you have the "perfect" configuration for YOUR needs, and then you will stop upgrading as well. If this wasn't the case, we would all be running Cray supercomputers in our homes.

Meanwhile, it is clear that you do not want a keyboard. Fine. Let it go - we don't need to hear anymore of it. I don't want a car, but I don't post endlessly on a car afficionado site about why. You're getting close to trolling.

Brgds

Danny

I don't think that at any point I have prescribed that what would be right for ME would be right for anyone/everyone else.
I (ME, first person) have an aversion to closed systems.
Others do not - that is FINE with me.
I like to be able to upgrade/update things - others do not, again that is FINE with me.
MY preference is to upgrade/update in smaller (less expensive) steps, more of them, perhaps not less expensive in total, but easier to afford every two or three years and closer to "current" technologies.

It is a PREFERENCE - again, MY preference and I am not prescribing it for others.
Your choices, my choices, choices of others, we are all free to make them.
We are all free to express our opinions as to what is right for us.
That is about all I have done here, is to express that what is right for ME is a (relatively) open system.
I have also expressed some of MY rationale for that.
{We COULD argue about the extent to which any system is "open", but that would be even more pointless.}

I do not ask ANYONE to agree with that, although I would urge anyone who is about to embark on ANY major purchase to consider some alternatives.

As to "barking up the wrong tree" lets just agree that you bark up DIFFERENT trees ?
Not "wrong" in my opinion, just different - your choice, etc.

BTW, we ARE now running computers that equate to what Crays used to be (-:
The Gigahertz CPU was a DREAM less than 20 years ago, my first gigabyte hard drive retailed for about $4K in the late 80s, though I got it (free) as a surplus/reject unit. My terabyte back-up drive cost less than $150 a few months ago.
Moore's Law (-:

As far a bicycles and cars are concerned - Well,,, I have an inboard ski boat, but not a Chris Craft.
My SPORT is water skiing, my HOBBY is not caring for mahogany and oiling teak (-:
Different pastimes - I am computer competent, the amount of computer "tinkering" involved in my music making is not a pastime to me, it is a trivial technical task that I undertake when doing upgrades.

Just in case you missed it, I play "live" not via sequenced files on the computer.
Multi tracking / studio production ? Yes, another interesting pastime, but not one of mine.

[ericho]

All digital music instruments are open !!!!
If not thru an interface then by rewriting the eproms,,, no big deal
Besides getting rid off software-bugs its not very useful thou

Sample size blablabla is sooo outdated and responsible for less then 10% of the overall signal quality and usefulness of your instrument.

The korg M1 days are over, sample size was important in the early 90'

All my electronic instruments older than 15 years are raising in value !!!
The 30 year old ones are worth many thousands of dollars (lucky me )


Two things are important,,, FUN FACTOR,,, SOUND,,,, you happy with it ? this counts !!!!
All the rest is futile commercial crap.

Playing live is fun, using computer (DAW), drum-machines, effectors, arpeggiators and all sorts of midi devises is not a crime and has musical value.
I use everything I can get my hand on,,, part of the hobby

My2c

Kind regards

Eric

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by JohnDiV

To all who own CVP 509PE and maybe the 500 series not sure about that.

There is an issue with the amp inside. I have a slight humming sound from the speakers below.

I just had a repair guy around to cut the trace. 15 minute job. No hum!

[ericho]

Cool


You didn't take a picture by any chance ??

Eric

[Nikki]

Originally Posted by ericho

Cool


You didn't take a picture by any chance ??

Eric

I didn't take my eyes off the 'engineer', especially the screw driver, which seemed rather long and ready to stab itself into the CVP's finish.
The pictures are all in my head . It's so simple to unscrew the two hidden screws to the lid to gain access to the electronics. There's so much room, you could fit a few PCs in there. I caught a glimpse of the back of the keys. I suppose this information will only apply when the warranty expires.

After the repair, the engineer sat at the bench, switched on the Clavinova and casually began playing in a similar style to the pianist at the start of Playing Love. Wow, this guy plays! He stopped after a few seconds and confirmed the fix complete.

[JohnDiV]

Hi Nikki, it is a real simple fix, and it does do the job. Glad to hear that the hum is gone and you are happy.

Doesn't the 509 have a great sound and touch? Yamaha samples are stunning.



John

[Nikki]

When I turn up the volume it can sometimes feel exhilarating.. I must let the neighbours know how good this sounds too! My Sony headphones feel a bit lifeless compared to the speakers. There's definitely more to the sound exiting and bouncing about the room than what the headphones can produce. For this reason I'll only use them late in the evening.

[RBmusic]

Originally Posted by Nikki

When I turn up the volume it can sometimes feel exhilarating.. I must let the neighbours know how good this sounds too! My Sony headphones feel a bit lifeless compared to the speakers. There's definitely more to the sound exiting and bouncing about the room than what the headphones can produce. For this reason I'll only use them late in the evening.

Well, there ARE very BASIC differences between what the player hears when playing and what an audience hears when listening.

So, are there separate tunable settings for this ?
Some piano emulator software allows for the spacial placement of the (emulated)microphones.
e.g. Pianoteq, can position as many as 5 microphones to pick up the sound as a recording engineer might, or as the player would hear it binaurally at their head position.
The latter setting would be most natural for the player hearing what they are playing.
I think there are the usual small & large room and hall settings for ambient acoustics when positioning mics in audience positions, but I haven't experimented with that.

So, I guess I'm suggesting that there might be some settings that would "improve" the headphone sound, by selective mic positions and/or by adding (simulated)room reflections and resonances.

Alternatively, your speakers just might be a lot better than your headphones (-:
I would still check the manual for headphone optimized settings.

[Nikki]

The iAFC effect is not incorporated into the headphone output, which is outlined in the manual. Therefore the headphone output lacks the spacial feeling and damper or soundboard resonance. My headphones are Sony MDR7506. I think the Yamaha N2 or N3 has similar issues. It's never going to sound as good over headphones.

[RBmusic]

Originally Posted by Nikki

The iAFC effect is not incorporated into the headphone output, which is outlined in the manual. Therefore the headphone output lacks the spacial feeling and damper or soundboard resonance. My headphones are Sony MDR7506. I think the Yamaha N2 or N3 has similar issues. It's never going to sound as good over headphones.

Hmmm, is iAFC available at the AUX outputs ?
If so you MIGHT be able to use those, though I would be sure to turn the line out volume WAY DOWN before connecting earphones to them.

[dbjorck]

Hi!

Originally Posted by RBmusic

Hmmm, is iAFC available at the AUX outputs ?
If so you MIGHT be able to use those, though I would be sure to turn the line out volume WAY DOWN before connecting earphones to them.

No, iAFC is not available in any output, and you wouldn't want it to. It is an environment adjustment - not an effect. It uses the microphones at the back of the piano to measure which frequencies the walls, furniture, carpets, curtains, etc, around the piano absorb, and then adjusts it's speaker output so those frequencies don't become muffled. Your ears don't absorb the same frequencies as your walls. And recording it through AUX and taking it to another room would be the same - the iAFC is specifically custom made for the room the piano is in. It will not make sense in any other location.

For the headphones, you should be tweaking the Equaliser, effects like Reverb, and especially Compression make a huge difference (more than iAFC)

Brgds

Danny